Welcome to the Slices of Time Street Photography podcast. Today, I’m joined by Bram Penninckx, a street photographer from Brussels. I heard about him when he was on stage at a De Donkere Kamer event here in Antwerp. He spoke about his project Le Ring, and immediately, I wanted to know more about his work and this particular series.
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Timestamps of this episode with Bram Penninckx
00:00 Introduction to Street Photography and Bram Pennings
02:31 Understanding Brussels Through Photography
05:59 Safety in Street Photography
07:23 Techniques and Equipment in Street Photography
10:01 The Le Ring Project: Concept and Execution
19:40 Project Timelines and Selection Process
24:34 Collaboration and Trust in Photography Projects
29:12 Behind the Scenes of Photography Projects
32:13 The Importance of Project Conclusion
34:36 Navigating Book Publishing in Photography
38:17 Permissions and Challenges in Street Photography
43:17 Focusing on Local Narratives
46:20 Research and Its Role in Photography
52:20 The Changing Landscape of Brussels
55:40 The Unique Identity of Brussels
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Bram. Don’t forget to subscribe to be updated about upcoming episodes. Reach out via social media if you want to share any questions or ideas.
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Podcast Transcript
Frederic Paulussen (00:01.134)
So welcome to the Slice of Time Street Photography Podcast. Today I’m joined by Bram Penninckx, a street photographer from Brussels. I heard about him when he was on stage at the Donkere Kamer, an event here in Antwerp for photographers. And there he spoke about his project Le Ring. And I immediately wanted to know more about his work and his particular series. So that’s why I DM’d him on Instagram,
in the hopes for this conversation and now we’re having a conversation so that’s great news. So Bram, perhaps it’s nice for you to introduce yourself.
Bram Penninckx (00:36.104)
Yes, so I’m my name is Bram Penninckx and I’m a documentary street photographer from Brussels living and working there and my personal documentary projects are mainly focused on Brussels and its surroundings. It’s
city you love to hate and hate to love and it’s misunderstood by many and it’s one of the drives of doing this work is so people but also myself could understand the city more because it’s difficult to grasp it’s typical let’s say Kafkaesque situations from times to times but
I find it really an interesting city, in a good and a bad way. That’s why my work is mainly focused on the city of Brussels.
Frederic Paulussen (01:33.706)
Okay, good. I didn’t quite catch. Are you born in Brussels or is it like, did you move? Okay.
Bram Penninckx (01:38.347)
No, no, I’m coming from Overijse, which is a town situated near Le Ring It’s love who brought me. I studied, went to school here in Brussels. Thanks to the woman I married, I now live in Brussels.
Frederic Paulussen (01:48.866)
Okay.
Frederic Paulussen (02:02.881)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, because I was curious because you mentioned like photography was like a way for you to understand Brussels and it’s familiar because I used to live in Brussels for three years as well and for me it was like going outside and doing photography. It was like a way to also like explore to city that like know where everything is and stuff. So that’s why I was wondering if you were from Brussels itself or not because that kind of like would…
Bram Penninckx (02:09.78)
Mm-hmm.
Bram Penninckx (02:14.363)
Okay.
Frederic Paulussen (02:31.435)
be an easy explanation of why you would explore Brussels by photography. then like how did you like, was Brussels then some strange place for you that you needed to understand? Or was it more like…
Bram Penninckx (02:44.235)
No, because I went to primary school and high school. I was in Brussels. Afterwards, last years of high school were in Antwerp. And I studied photography in Ghent. But I always knew the city from when I was a child. And also because it’s…
Frederic Paulussen (02:58.349)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (03:14.699)
There are lot of positive aspects, but also lot of negative aspects. When I was in the first year in studying in Ghent, I was robbed, my camera was taken and so on. then you’re on the crossroad and you’ve got to choose, okay, what am I going to do? Is the fear, which is an aspect which is normal after a robbery, will it…
take over or do I jump over it? Do I try to? Because photography is part of me, with every photographer. this is the main reason is because I felt the city has so many different stories, so many different things going on that I need to tell the story.
Frederic Paulussen (04:09.739)
Yeah. Okay, yeah make sense. So like this was how long ago did this happen then? The robbery.
Bram Penninckx (04:15.914)
Oh, it was 2001, yeah, quite a long time ago.
Frederic Paulussen (04:21.931)
Yeah, about, Okay, and since then, like, you got over it by doing more photography? Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (04:26.984)
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I wouldn’t say it’s the last time I had some issues, but it’s the first and touchons du bois, let’s touch on wood, as they say in French. The only time when I was physically harmed, let’s say. okay. Yeah, it really was. But yeah, those things happened, you know, unfortunately.
Frederic Paulussen (04:47.965)
Okay, wow, okay, so was an aggressive robbery. Okay.
Bram Penninckx (04:56.296)
in every city.
Frederic Paulussen (04:57.548)
Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah, because when I was looking at your specifically at your series of Bonsoir Brussel which is about like the evenings in Brussels, I was wondering like, I had a question marked down like how do you look at safety? Because of course, if you like in any city, of course, but I think some some parts of Brussels, especially if you go out at night, it’s it can be
Bram Penninckx (05:05.128)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (05:24.747)
I mean, dangerous or it can feel dangerous at least.
Bram Penninckx (05:29.708)
It can feel dangerous, it’s a feeling that’s not necessarily how it really is in reality. And did I feel felt insecure and safe at times? Yeah, sure. Did something happen at that time? No, never. And because all those photos are photographed on the tripod and I started photographing just after sunset.
Frederic Paulussen (05:39.243)
Yeah, exactly.
Bram Penninckx (05:59.496)
and for an hour maybe to capture the moment because you never know with the combination of fading daylight and artificial light how it will turn out. so there were some times where people warned me be careful and so on but I never had any problems whatsoever on that front because yeah,
It’s what I learned from it. It’s the moment when you least expect it that it might happen. when you’re broad daylight, because the robbery was on broad daylight, was on a really busy street. yeah, so it’s not like, for example, they say a dark street that you will get robbed. It’s vice versa. That’s what I learned from.
Frederic Paulussen (06:37.599)
Yeah, broad daylights.
Frederic Paulussen (06:56.427)
Yeah, okay cool. while you were speaking I was I thinking like the the irony probably was it was like somewhere on during daylight and not during the Bonsoir Brussel time. So yeah it’s it’s it’s a shame. So but I picked up that you did that series with tripod. Do you often use tripods on the street?
Bram Penninckx (07:06.844)
Mm-mm-mm. Mm-mm. Mm-mm-mm-mm.
Bram Penninckx (07:23.312)
Well, depends. So it depends on the subject. For example, the other, Bonsoir Brussel was one part of a project I did. started 2009 to 2015 and a book was made out of it. And the other part is BRÜKSELISATIONS and it’s about
Frederic Paulussen (07:50.124)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (07:50.724)
events that happen in the city, demonstrations, also street parties and so on and everything in between. that nothing of those photos was made with tripod. The other series, Brussels en route is about that’s when I took all the buses, trams, metros in Brussels and
was never made on with a tripod. So it depends on the subject.
Frederic Paulussen (08:20.929)
Yeah. Okay. And so for le ring, because that was of course your most recent series and the one that sparked my interests. Did you use, because it’s a lot of landscapes, do you use, yeah. So did you use a tripod there as well or?
Bram Penninckx (08:26.939)
Mm. Mm.
Bram Penninckx (08:34.661)
Yeah, it’s only landscapes here.
Bram Penninckx (08:39.495)
Monopod and tripod combination of both because Depends on small changes and I find it easier to work with a monopod because sometimes it depends you’re waiting on changing light for example or some because they’re
Frederic Paulussen (08:42.751)
Okay. Okay.
Bram Penninckx (09:03.655)
There aren’t any people around that’s not something I didn’t Photoshop them out of the series. It’s also because It’s really I would dare to say desolate area because a lot of people are at work or working from home But the only people I encounter are people walking their dog or someone mowing the lawn. That’s one but Those suburban zone around Brussels is quite desolate
And that’s also the reason why I, because, okay, you can work with, okay, there’s, need an elderly couple. I need a guy with these kids coming from school. You can work with a kind of to-do list that might work for some photographers. But the problem is that, that you’ll, it’s, when you look and search the most for something,
it won’t happen. for example, because I’m still working on the series, it will end at the end of this year at the latest. I really want to make a photo of an ecoduct. Not sure if the translation is right. In fact, it’s a bridge with
Frederic Paulussen (10:22.248)
Okay,
Bram Penninckx (10:26.214)
trees and so on where the animals can walk from one side of the forest to the other, can cross the ring road around Brussels. And for years I haven’t found it. And then yesterday, because I was also doing a lot of interviews, I went for an interview with the manager of the Sonian forest. there when I was…
I crossed the ring, I saw exactly what I was looking for, what I needed. So that, okay, it’s not coincidence because it’s because you’re looking for, you’re walking around and so on. But it’s also with all the previous projects, there are some things that are in my head or I’ve written down that needs to be in there. But if you’re actively looking for them, you’re creating
Frederic Paulussen (10:57.64)
Okay.
Bram Penninckx (11:21.988)
maybe easier images, not creating your photographing easier images. And that’s a risk because personally for something that I really try to avoid is the black and white, know, good or bad. It’s never good, it’s never bad. It’s always in between. I wouldn’t dare to say the 50 shades of gray, but yeah, there are a lot of different nuances. And that’s something that I find really important that tell
Frederic Paulussen (11:24.599)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Bram Penninckx (11:50.31)
people, it’s not that, for example, the suburban zone around Brussels is ugly. Yeah, there are some ugly situations, ugly landscapes, but there are also some really nice ones. And it’s not that you’ll find a pristine forest or that…
Even in Sonian forest, you hear the ring, you hear the traffic most of the time, but it’s a mix in fact. And also because like when you’re walking around during a mountain hike, you experience four different seasons in one day. Well, the same can be said here in the suburban zone around Brussels.
Frederic Paulussen (12:30.22)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (12:46.403)
Because you’ll see, just if you turn around, you could see a field, a forest, suburban area, and there may be some high-rise buildings on the horizon. so that’s the thing. Because also when you look at the landscape, you learn a lot about the situation in the Belgian situation, but also how people from out of…
on the other side of the frontier, let’s say, because you’ve got these different regions in Belgium, how they look towards Brussels. And Viseversa, the other way around, of course.
Frederic Paulussen (13:25.069)
Yeah.
Yes, definitely true. did you, because you mentioned like you were looking for like an ecoduct and everything. So is there like a system in how you find your photo locations or is kind of like you walk around at random in the different zones and find out or how do you?
Bram Penninckx (13:49.508)
Well, because it’s such a vast zone, in fact the ring road itself is 75 km long and the zone I photographed is 1 km on either side of the ring road. So that’s a really big zone. I especially demarcated it, not for a reason, it could be 500 meters or a kilometer and a half, but yeah it’s such a big
region and and so that’s the choice I made and then what I would do is I’ll Retrace all my steps in Google. I’ll draw them out in Google Maps and So I can see the whole situation where are the zones that I? Visited multiple times. Where are there places where I should go?
Or I forgot, for example, now I am, it’s not something I found out recently, for its, you, the Sonian forest, sorry, is, zone that I need to visit more often. That’s something I didn’t forgot, but due to, other parts that were, that draw my, drew my attention. that’s something that I,
something that I’m sure of that I need to focus more on the coming weeks and months to capture the whole image in fact.
Frederic Paulussen (15:21.57)
Yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (15:25.271)
So you kind of like made a heat map of where you went, if I understood? Yeah, okay. I mean, yeah.
Bram Penninckx (15:28.356)
Yeah, heat map. Yeah, in fact, it’s in Google Earth. You’ve got the satellite photo. Then you’ve got all the different walks I made. And then because I want to be to pass through each zone at least twice. And then depending on what, for example, if there are a lot of streets, then maybe I will
I will come back for a third or four time. It depends in fact, but it’s not it’s not coincidentally That I found those images and so on. No, not at all
Frederic Paulussen (16:08.373)
Okay, that’s really cool. It’s it’s fun to see like that there’s some kind of system because of course it’s a bit different than the previous guests, but all of them I found were more, I’m not gonna say at random, but it’s like you go hunting to some degree. And for this, it’s kind of like, I’m not gonna call it surgical, but it leans more to surgical.
Bram Penninckx (16:24.929)
Mm.
Frederic Paulussen (16:34.899)
surgical activity or strategy than most street photographers, I like. I like the variation because also it’s completely different to other street photographers as you mentioned. There’s no people around. But for me it’s still street photography. It’s like landscape street photography, it’s yeah. So I like to highlight that aspect as well.
Bram Penninckx (16:39.667)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (16:49.785)
Nope.
Yeah, just…
Bram Penninckx (16:56.578)
But it’s not something that I came out of bed one day and I said, okay, it’s only people, no people, only landscapes. Yeah, the first year in 2020 I started and I was just looking around, photographing also a lot of people, but other things and some really, somewhere,
Because there are some very old photos in the series, but there were a lot of photos which I made I have a small Fuji camera as well and so they were totally different and But it wasn’t yeah You need to choose what kind of story do you want to tell with your photography with the project and for me it was an
I was quite sure from the beginning on that okay, it’s the landscape which is the most important thing because also because it’s a I would say political bit sensitive subjects because you’ve got the Brussels which is I wouldn’t say French-speaking but it’s different region and in the heads of most people a French-speaking city
And then around it, in the heads of most people, you’ve got the Dutch-speaking Flanders around it. the landscape, it does not possess some kind of political opinion. So it doesn’t speak a language, but it’s the result of those political decisions of the people who live there.
So that’s why I quite in the beginning already was mainly focused on landscapes and then talking to people who looked at the the photos from the first year which helped me also a bit to focus more on the landscape and
Frederic Paulussen (19:08.237)
Yeah, okay. Cool. Yeah. And so like you said, like you started in 2020, I think with the project, it like, is there like, if you, because you’ve done plenty of projects already, is there like a hard start and a hard, and you mentioned like you will have a hard stop, I’ve noticed. Like, is there like really a timeline for you or how do you, is it more like you fall into this,
Bram Penninckx (19:15.36)
Mm-hmm.
Bram Penninckx (19:28.66)
Mm-mm.
Bram Penninckx (19:33.504)
Yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (19:37.015)
project and retroactively say, then more or less it started.
Bram Penninckx (19:38.145)
Well, it depends on the project for example Brussels en route was really hard start and stop Because for example the the the buses trans and metros are property of the the company and you need to have permission which wasn’t quite easy to get because I started
just before the attacks on the metro. that was… But I had really good relationships with the media company and they believed in the project. But with Le Ring it’s different because I know what kind of story I wanted to tell but also it’s…
changed because I read a lot about subject and there were things that were in my head that turned out not to be true that didn’t match with with how it really is in the situation also I wanted to avoid those black and white images but those are the images which are we are as photographers but also as people looking at the photos
which we like more because they’re easier to grasp, easier to understand. And that’s why I chose the first time I said, okay, it will take three years. then, yeah, at the end of the second year, I was quite sure that three years wouldn’t be enough.
And then I said, okay, it needs to be, yeah, at least five years. So it’s going to be five years and a couple of months because it’s such a complex situation. There’s so much things going on and you’ve got to choose. You’ve got to choose what are you going to tell? Also selecting the images. It takes a lot of time and so on. that’s…
Bram Penninckx (21:52.522)
That’s why it took five, it’s taking five years because the project isn’t finished.
Frederic Paulussen (21:58.254)
And so like how many photos that you make and how many will end up in the projects?
Bram Penninckx (22:04.544)
Now I’m because I have them. Yeah, I’m quite a hundred five hundred six and counting but yeah some after a couple of because I On a regular basis. I always look at the photos. I try to make combination with the different photos and after some time some images which in the beginning thought I thought okay
Frederic Paulussen (22:10.485)
If you know, of course.
Bram Penninckx (22:33.92)
They look nice, they look interesting. After some time, they’re not that interesting anymore. Also, there are images which do look similar. Then you would say after a time, which one do I prefer? So, yeah, selecting and finding the right sequence and so on, that takes a lot of work, but will be more or less around 100 photos for the book. Yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (23:00.117)
Okay, cool. And so you’re already like, you’re not finished, but you’re already sequencing and yeah.
Bram Penninckx (23:05.896)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you should, you should, because it also depends on, personally for me, I would say you should start sequencing quite early on, maybe not the first month, but because it’s the same with the writer, he writes his story, he has a storyboard, he knows where he’s going, it’s more or less the same with projects I’m working on.
on, I know where I’m going. But yeah, it’s, there are more, more things going on than, than when you’re writer, you’re just behind your computer or typewriter or a pen and pencil, pencil and paper. mean, but it’s, it’s the same thing for me personally, when you need to tell a story that you best start sequencing, selecting or early on. But
maybe another photographer has another idea so yeah
Frederic Paulussen (24:06.709)
No, but yeah, I like sharing those ideas because of course everything is different for everyone. like hearing someone speak about something can inspire you to try it as well, find out if it works for you or not. So that’s kind of like the essence of this podcast. It’s like there’s no wrong or right way, but it can be like, hear someone out and see where they go with their things. So you mentioned like the…
Bram Penninckx (24:12.679)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Bram Penninckx (24:18.375)
Mm-mm-mm.
Mm-mm.
Bram Penninckx (24:29.447)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Frederic Paulussen (24:33.453)
for the en route series that you work together with the MIVB or is more like
Bram Penninckx (24:39.215)
Worked together they gave me permission So it wasn’t a project in their name Because it’s a documentary project it’s not some kind of infomercial to say because but As they own the place they said okay, but in the end we’ll
Frederic Paulussen (24:55.031)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (25:06.207)
give you the go ahead for all the images. was quite a risk to take because I knew if they wouldn’t like the series or some photos, then it might change the whole thing. in the book are, uh, forgot the complete number. Let’s say I gave them, uh, in the end, 120 photos to look at. And there were two.
that for totally different reasons they said, okay, sorry, but you can’t use those two. And those two were, I’m not going into detail because, but those two were very good images. But did they change the story of the whole project? Not at all. So because, but how, because they trusted me because I started working, yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (25:54.058)
Okay, yeah.
Bram Penninckx (26:01.662)
beginning of 2016 and I ended the project in 2018. We got to know each other and that’s why they gave me the trust. But it takes some time to get trusted by people or larger organizations and especially during the first year was difficult and wasn’t their fault of course.
Frederic Paulussen (26:27.117)
Yeah, just for people listening out of context, in 2016, like March, I think, March 2016, we had like a terrorist attack at the airport, but also at one of the metro stops or metro, yeah, on the train itself. So yeah, just as context, so that was at like the third month of your project then. So I can imagine, yeah, that it’s not the easiest atmosphere.
Bram Penninckx (26:31.994)
March 2016,
Bram Penninckx (26:44.23)
Nah, sure.
Frederic Paulussen (26:54.689)
to work in. Also like in the trains, even apart from the company and them having to deal with those issues, I can imagine people taking the metro are very apprehensive. That’s the word.
Bram Penninckx (27:08.654)
Yes, but that’s something that you you after some time you quite you can Would dare to say feel how? They are going to react because okay, you you’re never sure You’re never sure how people are going to react but after some time, you know, okay this I need to be a bit more careful here this won’t work and this might work and
And most of the time it turned out to be true after because you you you learned the hard way There was some things which are the most difficult thing personally for me were the soldiers I Wanted them to be in the series because they were a part, but they I wasn’t allowed to photograph any of them and it took some time and creativity to get them into the series and
Frederic Paulussen (27:55.457)
Yeah, because they’re a part of it, yeah.
Bram Penninckx (28:06.661)
I managed but for the most part it’s yeah I never had okay people were maybe a bit offended or angry because I heard in the previous podcast with the Greek photographer mention yeah do you need to delete your photos it happened only once and then okay yeah
It happens, you know, but I met drunk people. met, uh, uh, I wouldn’t say, let’s say a group of youth, uh, were a bit, uh, um, uh, masculine, uh, masculine to say, uh, and so, yeah, but maybe in the beginning they said, okay, what are you doing? And so on. But when you start talking, yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (29:02.38)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (29:02.397)
Most of the time it works and they say okay, I don’t want to be photographed. Okay. Tough luck next time maybe better
Frederic Paulussen (29:12.673)
Yeah, of course. So yeah, that’s that’s I think it’s a I like the series. So I think it’s cool work and it’s nice to hear about the behind the scenes of it. So also to get back to le ring, sorry for a second. There was one photo of like it’s it’s a snowy field with a white building on it. So it like really matches very well. So it’s like curious. I can’t find it instantly at this second.
Bram Penninckx (29:35.526)
yeah.
Bram Penninckx (29:42.188)
Yeah, I…
Frederic Paulussen (29:42.322)
there’s more down but then it’s so it’s it’s basically for the people listening and of course the links are it’s all linked down in the description or on the website but there’s this one photo of white office buildings i think or apartment buildings but like yeah it’s like this
Bram Penninckx (29:48.24)
Mm-mm.
Bram Penninckx (29:53.308)
Mm.
Bram Penninckx (29:58.364)
No, it’s apartment buildings, but it doesn’t matter.
Frederic Paulussen (30:06.187)
these big buildings with snow. Was it something you like, okay, it’s snowing today, I have to go to a place with like white buildings or was it more like a coincidence or?
Bram Penninckx (30:18.204)
Since in Belgium, you’re in Belgium as well, it rarely snows. I said to myself, because it was last year, yeah, last year, 2024, January, something like that. But the white buildings, was coincidence. But I knew it’s in Villevorde, knew there are a lot of new developments going on there.
Frederic Paulussen (30:22.057)
Exactly, yeah, that’s why I was wondering.
Bram Penninckx (30:46.502)
So, but yeah, when I saw those buildings from afar, knew maybe those white buildings with the snow that could work. And then I started walking around it and then I saw the field because it’s just an empty spot, a building lot, which is going to be, yeah, the…
I’m not sure, maybe they’re constructing a building, a new building over there right now. But then I knew, that’s the image I really want because you’ve got the cleanness of the white and then the snow with the clean white lines of the building. really, yeah. I knew that beforehand that…
that I could find some kind of image around that I could find an interesting image.
Frederic Paulussen (31:46.146)
Yeah cool, so like yeah exactly because my question was because we hardly have any snow we had like some snow like this week or last week I think but it’s like a very thin layer that’s gone within within an hour so that’s why I was like curious to to those behind the scenes and so
Bram Penninckx (31:54.779)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (32:13.229)
you mentioned like there’s a hard end at the end of this year for the project is because you feel like then it’s done and you need to move on or because then you’ve told your what you want to say or what makes
Bram Penninckx (32:16.398)
Mm.
Bram Penninckx (32:25.722)
Yeah, you could walk around forever and because the landscape is continuously changing at some places and the other places, it stays the same for years and years. But you’re when you start repeating yourself and I’m not there yet, but I feel that at the end of this year, I might be there repeating myself, creating the same images that’s
the moment when I said, I’m saying it needs to end because it needs to be the thing is I’m still interested by landscape. never bored by it. But when you start repeating yourself, it maybe don’t necessarily know, but it that’s in fact, it means that you’re getting bored.
and then you need to stop and change and so on and do something else and also launching a book because I’m still have some editors that are interested but launching financing lectures is also something that I’m going to do. It takes a lot of time so you need to be
you need to have enough time to launch those projects as well. different things, but more or less it’s because in those five years I managed to capture everything I wanted and then it’s time to move on to something else.
Frederic Paulussen (34:09.677)
Yeah, and like, because I think you’re the one, I’m sure some of the previous guests had like books or exhibitions as well, but because it’s specifically now for a project, how do go about like the, for example, the book, like do you go to editors before you’re finished with all the photos or, and is it more like you have the contact with the editors already or?
Bram Penninckx (34:36.292)
For the previous two books I had the contacts with an editor but not going into details but let’s say that I’m looking for another editor at the moment. are some contacts, interesting contacts but not something that I haven’t signed any contract and so on because an advice is
to every photographer is the book the reason to print book is not because it looks good on your portfolio because it doesn’t get you any newest I might get but maybe Not it won’t get you into New assignments it might look good on your portfolio, but
It’s not for me, I created books because they a book is a medium to tell a story and the combination between text and photos and so on. But the reason that I created the books was not because it’s something that looks good in my portfolio. That’s because it takes a lot of time and effort and money.
Frederic Paulussen (35:42.497)
Mm-hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (35:58.307)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (36:02.937)
to publish, get the book published. So if that’s the only reason, because you like to publishing a book or then I would advise, there are a lot of different options to publish on demand, for example, websites to create your book, then go through a publisher. Because yeah, there are a lot of…
positive sides on the other side as well. I’m not saying it’s negative, not at all, but it’s… For me, the first book was dream coming true and the second book as well, but there are lot of different aspects that you learn the hard way.
Frederic Paulussen (36:51.457)
Yeah, it feels like it’s more a natural conclusion to the end of your project and really the end goal.
Bram Penninckx (36:56.088)
Yeah. Yeah. And, let’s say the, in the, the second book, brushes are route The purpose of the ride is the journey. Well, that’s the thing that I, for me, I never started the project. okay. It needs to be a book. and especially with le ring now, it’s just.
working for a couple of years on the project, but also talking to a lot of people who said to me, yeah, okay, but a book, you know, the series would really fit in a book. It would really suit the series, especially because I also work a lot with the, I write my own texts and so on. the combination of those two would really work well. So that’s why I’m
I’m not saying that it will be a book, but that’s why I’m still trying to get the book published.
Frederic Paulussen (37:57.43)
Yeah, of course. Makes sense. of course. It’s a nice natural conclusion of a project. And yeah, let’s circle back again. Sorry for all the changing between projects, but to the Brussels on Roots part, because you mentioned, of course, you need to have the permission of the public transport company, MIVB But is it like, because then it’s…
Bram Penninckx (38:10.503)
No problem.
Bram Penninckx (38:17.526)
Mm-mm.
Frederic Paulussen (38:26.881)
Is it like a permission for like two years you get or is it like every month you need to re-admit?
Bram Penninckx (38:32.179)
Every, well, first of all, in the beginning, I received, I wouldn’t say the written permission, but I see the agreement that it would be possible to just get the one permission for the whole project, the duration of project, but that all changed because I really started photographing
After I was already busy, but it was more prospecting and looking, okay, how I’m going to work because you’re in a very enclosed environment. And then I really started working on the series after the attacks and then it completely changed and I needed to ask permission each time when for each bus or tram or metro line.
Frederic Paulussen (39:29.777)
wow.
Bram Penninckx (39:31.552)
always received the permission. They didn’t say you’re not allowed to go this or that route or go to a neighborhood where we experience some problems with drivers and so on. No, they always gave me permission, but I’m not sure quite why, but yeah, that’s changed while I was, because of the security measures that they
the Belgian government took
Frederic Paulussen (40:03.595)
Yeah, okay. And so it was a lot of like administration for you to get your photos and yeah. And did they like follow up in between? Like did you sometimes have to like, how do you say, like show results to them in the meanwhile? Or is it like, here’s permission, do whatever.
Bram Penninckx (40:22.999)
First of all, the first book helped because they already saw I was really interested in the city and I wasn’t making the easier black and white images of and black, let’s say, drug addicts in the metro, we see unfortunately, we see regularly.
Now in those days, that many, but now that’s another situation. A whole lot of difference. yeah, yeah. And also from time to time, I think it was every three or four months I came over there and we had a meeting and I showed them the photos I took and so on.
Frederic Paulussen (40:56.013)
That’s a whole other podcast series that we can fill with it, yeah.
Bram Penninckx (41:19.178)
And then they saw, I wouldn’t say it changed. I’m quite sure I would have without with or without permission, I would have made the same images that did not change. never thought to myself, but how are they going to react? Are they going to like it or not? But I can imagine that it might for some people that work.
the other way because you’re quite afraid and so on. I, it’s an agreement I made with them that if they have the right to say, you can’t use, let’s say 50 % of the series. But if that would change the story, if that I wanted to tell, I’m not going to publish the book.
Frederic Paulussen (41:49.474)
Yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (42:14.029)
Hmm.
Bram Penninckx (42:14.292)
And it wasn’t blackmail or something. No, it’s something I honestly said in the beginning. Okay. it’s, this is, you are the owner and responsible and swan. And, I completely get that and I understand it, but I, it’s not that I’m going to, like it’s not an infomercial for, public transportation in Brussels. Yeah. And that’s a gamble, but you also, you always have to gamble a bit.
Frederic Paulussen (42:36.319)
No, yeah, you want your creative freedom still, yeah.
Bram Penninckx (42:44.061)
It was a calculated gamble, but it was a gamble. Yeah.
Frederic Paulussen (42:47.223)
That’s part of street photography, think it’s all trying out and seeing what sticks because you, of course, you had the first book about Brussels and it helps to show your love for Brussels. And I see no other photo from outside of or far outside of Brussels, let’s say. there a specific reason that you keep your focus on that region or?
Bram Penninckx (43:09.929)
Nope.
Bram Penninckx (43:15.253)
First of all, I do work on assignments. But since my main focus is those personal documentary projects, people advised me to show those projects. There are two assignments, I guess, because they’re linked to Brussels in some way or another. But show only those.
photo series on your website. And because it’s something I found out by talking to people who know the business a bit that that’s the best way forward. And for me, it’s the
It grew on me. I’m not saying that I’m not interested in what happens in the world, in other parts of the world, vice versa, because I really read a lot of newspapers and so on, but it’s a personal choice. If I’m allowed to quote Martin Parr when he was on his first talk,
Frederic Paulussen (44:16.951)
No, no, yeah.
Bram Penninckx (44:34.537)
If we wouldn’t get the first… If you’re allowed in Magnum, the photo agency, you need to defend yourself, defend your work. And what he said… I wasn’t there, but that’s what I read. What he said is the supermarket is my frontline. And you know, there were a lot of…
Frederic Paulussen (44:54.083)
is it? Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (45:00.981)
war photographers, for example Henri Cartier-Bresson, one of the founding members was still alive. And it really shocked, that’s the story, everyone who was attending the meeting. And for me, it’s a bit the same. I wouldn’t say that you’re not allowed to visit other countries or to, but you need to be sure, no, you need to be aware that you’re looking at the other country with a different
glass with a Western European point of view, which is, I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing, but when you’re looking at some situation projects with the eyes of a local, you see it in a different way. And I wouldn’t say it’s more or less interesting. It’s more or less better. No, but it’s different. And for me, that’s, need to be authentic. And for me, authentic means
photographing Brussels and its surroundings. I’m not saying that my next project is going to be in Brussels. It might not. But for the moment, that’s how I see things.
Frederic Paulussen (46:15.499)
Yeah, no, it makes total sense. So you already mentioned the next project. Do you have ideas or is it still a… Yeah. You have a list in a notebook probably like, maybe this, maybe this.
Bram Penninckx (46:19.923)
Yeah, yeah, ideas, but first finish this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but didn’t start because you’ve got people who work on a lot of personal projects in the same time. That’s something that does not work for me because like I already mentioned, I’m doing a lot of interviews with people.
I’m reading a lot about the subject. It’s also, that’s not something that I want to, I wouldn’t give every detail or write every detail in the text, but for me, it’s really important to grasp the whole situation and then you can choose. And that’s why it takes a lot of time to create the project, especially this one, the other ones as well, but this one maybe more.
For example, you’ve got the StatBel, which is the Belgian agency of statistics, which got all kinds of numbers and graphics from birth to the car possession. And I wouldn’t say that I need to use them in the book or in the text or in the lecture, but it’s something that I need to know to grasp the whole situation.
And that takes time and that’s why I always work on one project and then finish it and go to over to the next. But I have some ideas, some based in Brussels, some are in Brussels, some are not, but that’s something that I’ll look afterwards.
Frederic Paulussen (48:05.121)
Yeah, okay. So like one more thing that you now mentioned, like you really do like a deep dive research. You mentioned like looking up statistics and stuff. Is it like…
Is it before your project? during? Is it how essential do you think it is to your project? And how does it influence your photography? Is there a direct influence or is it more like good to know and maybe you come up to something? In general, also with the interviews and stuff.
Bram Penninckx (48:27.155)
In general, depends. First of all, always start, I do some research, but I wouldn’t say that I start studying before taking photos because then you’re really, for me personally, I would
be, you’re looking like this, know, a bit like the horse. I forgot the word in English, those, yeah, because, you, I need to have an open point of view. And gradually, when I’m working on it, talking to people about it, and also,
Frederic Paulussen (49:01.069)
Hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (49:05.215)
Yeah, with like with the visors or whatever you call it.
Bram Penninckx (49:24.698)
So reading a lot about it. Then there’s something, that’s something I need to know more about. And then I’ll look up, if, look for some text or studies. then, so, yeah, it depends. But personally, I always start with an open point of view.
I regard ouvert the say in French and then gradually I start downsizing. But it’s a different approach and you’ve got people who do the other way around, which is fine by me. For me, worked personally the best because it’s such a big area.
worked more than 800 kilometers in those almost five years now. So then it helps me to focus on certain things, but without forgetting the most important things. And also, for example, I had lot of interviews with people, researchers or people who work in administration about the region.
And they gave me also they gave me new tips because for example with one organization, the Vlaamse Landmaatschappij, they said, you know, okay, we really like the series, but we don’t see a lot of water in it. And you know, should know that how we deal with water, with springs, for example, is
is a really important thing that people tend to forget. And that’s when I said, they’re right, you know, and that’s something that I need to focus more on. so, yeah, that’s maybe because I want to give a wide view. That’s why I find it really important to study and to talk to a lot of people about it.
Frederic Paulussen (51:23.863)
Hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (51:38.476)
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I think that’s cool because yeah, as you said, like everyone works in their own way, but it’s I think the well-researched approach is very under highlighted. It seems like people should just go out with a camera and shoot, which can totally work. That’s how I do it as well. like I like the approach of
thinking, speaking to people, including their approach or not of course, like meditating on it. Yeah, that’s maybe the best way to say it.
Bram Penninckx (52:18.063)
Mm.
Frederic Paulussen (52:20.683)
To me, it’s cool. I’m looking forward to see the end result of Le Ring Because there are some photos that I really love already. That I think are very great. You have like one of the… I think it’s gonna be in Zaventem. Perhaps? Like with the bridges of the road with like the small houses in between the pillars. it’s Diegem Okay.
Bram Penninckx (52:44.112)
yeah, Diegem, yeah. that’s Diegem, which is Zaventem, at that part. It’s Diegemlo. Yeah, depends which part of Diegem. But yeah, so, and that’s a good example because now it’s totally changed because there, a lot of the bridges are demolished. They’re going to construct new ones. so that’s something which I really like about,
Frederic Paulussen (52:51.852)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (53:10.832)
photography, it freezes a moment and also it gives an important message on how much the landscape is changing, how much the surroundings are changing and not because there’s a photo, I’m not quite sure, it’s not on my website I think, but it doesn’t matter, it’s a photo I made in the early days of the series of
a zone under construction where they’re to build offices. And so I made it at the end of 2020. a month or two ago, I passed by there by coincidence and it’s still more or less the same. Nothing has changed. so it might change in an instant and something stays the same forever. And that’s what I really, I wouldn’t say like because
Frederic Paulussen (53:54.343)
Hahaha
Frederic Paulussen (53:59.298)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (54:06.545)
It’s not a good thing necessarily, but it’s important that you can just by those different characteristics, you can also tell a story, which then those characteristics aren’t necessarily in the photo that you need to write the description or write text about it.
You can tell something with a photo, but not necessarily with the image what you see, but also with what’s surrounding it, which is hidden, and then you need to do something more with it. But that’s what I really love with photography. It’s not only the image. It’s also everything that’s around it.
Frederic Paulussen (54:54.839)
Hmm, no, yeah, makes sense. So I’m thinking we should probably wrap it up there because otherwise we’ll be here for a few more hours and I try to keep it within the hour. So thank you, Bram, for your time and insights. If anyone wants, my pleasure was, I was really happy you replied to my DMs because I saw your pitch and I was like, okay, this…
Bram Penninckx (55:01.882)
Okay?
Bram Penninckx (55:08.368)
Mm-mm-mm.
Bram Penninckx (55:13.36)
Thank you for inviting me.
Frederic Paulussen (55:22.357)
is very interesting project, especially for the podcast because it’s totally different from the others so far, but also because it’s street photography. And also because to me, I really like Belgium, but Brussels specifically also because as you said, it’s…
Bram Penninckx (55:26.5)
Mm-mm.
Frederic Paulussen (55:40.044)
There’s a very political edge to everything, there’s a lot of cut and paste. There’s no uniformity. In the Netherlands, entire neighbourhoods are built in the same style. And here it’s like… As you mentioned, the Four Seasons… I like that. A lot of people are against it, but to me that’s Belgium.
Bram Penninckx (55:50.998)
Mm-hmm.
Bram Penninckx (56:00.378)
It’s typically Belgian, it’s quite unique Brussels especially because due to the Flanders and Wallonia region and the Brussels region and how they interact or not and that’s what created the situation. In fact some guy I talked to, I’m not sure quite sure if I can mention it, but he said yeah it’s a bit like Vatican City and Rome.
Frederic Paulussen (56:08.204)
Yeah.
Bram Penninckx (56:25.87)
It’s the same situation where they have some domains that they govern together and there are some things that are separate. That’s bit the same with Brussels and also tells a lot. What I find interesting, if you draw out the route of the ring, it forms a B.
Frederic Paulussen (56:34.283)
Hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (56:50.507)
Hi, sir.
Bram Penninckx (56:51.284)
Upside down, mirror-wise, you’ll see a headcase B in it. And that’s why, that’s also because, if you work a lot on it, it’s something that you find. But yeah, that’s something that I really, because it’s, we tend to forget how important the city is to Belgium and the other way around. And that’s what I wanted to.
Frederic Paulussen (56:57.366)
Yeah, indeed.
Bram Penninckx (57:20.377)
That’s also the reason why I’m really working on Brussels. People look at in a very black and white and mostly black way. But there are so many things going on. There so many links. For example, Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels region around it are more or less one city in reality.
For example, are thousands of students going from Brussels to Flanders to study and vice versa. There are a lot of people living in Flanders and going by car to Brussels. So they are more or less linked and I’m not saying that Brussels needs to be bigger and so on, but in reality it is.
Frederic Paulussen (58:06.891)
Yeah, exactly. I think the many traffic jams daily to Brussels, I’m going to be in one, I think in about two hours probably, because I’m going to Brussels today, this evening. So I think the many traffic jams prove that Brussels is an essential part of Belgium for sure.
Bram Penninckx (58:26.592)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Frederic Paulussen (58:28.301)
So let’s wrap it up there. If anyone wants to follow Bram, course, can follow him. The links are in the description to his Instagram and website. I’m not sure if you’re on other channels as well.
Bram Penninckx (58:30.177)
Okay.
Bram Penninckx (58:38.422)
Yeah, LinkedIn, Instagram, I think we follow each other on LinkedIn as well.
Frederic Paulussen (58:45.421)
could be that I followed you there. So I’ll put all those links in the description. Make sure to follow him for the amazing photos and to see the end results of Le Ring Also make sure to follow the podcast, of course, on your favorite platform, wherever you’re listening to. You can also follow me for updates, of course. And then again, all the links are in the description or in the show notes. So see you in the next episode. Thank you.
Bram Penninckx (59:09.634)
Bye.